tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9319479.post2439236253481134299..comments2024-03-07T15:32:53.014+02:00Comments on Yehuda: Games Don't Have To Be FairYehuda Berlingerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16038826060312027387noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9319479.post-87015716859165832252008-06-23T19:21:00.000+03:002008-06-23T19:21:00.000+03:00David, thanks for the comments.Ian, I don't think ...David, thanks for the comments.<BR/><BR/>Ian, I don't think exact symmetry is required for fairness. But, as you say, players must acceptt the aseymmetry as fair or unfair, before starting.<BR/><BR/>Regarding Scotland Yard, whenever I refer to players, I mean sides; there are only two sides in SY, so fair must mean 50/50.<BR/><BR/>YehudaYehuda Berlingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16038826060312027387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9319479.post-91194443503348961352008-06-23T17:58:00.000+03:002008-06-23T17:58:00.000+03:00I'm still unclear on how you define "fair" in this...I'm still unclear on how you define "fair" in this context. You seem to equate fairness with gameplay symmetry from your examples; does this mean that an asymmetric game (e.g. OGRE/GEV, or Scotland Yard) cannot be fair, even if it is balanced?<BR/><BR/>The other potential definition of "fair" is that all players have an equal chance of winning, perhaps after controlling for other factors like skill. But even then you run into edge conditions. Is Scotland Yard "fair" if Mr. X wins 50% of the time (since it's him as one team against one other team), or 20% of the time (since it's one player against four)?<BR/><BR/>Ultimately, I think that "fair" comes down to player perception: does the player's preconceived notion of their chances of winning match their actual chance? This covers all of your examples. Gambling is okay even though odds favor the house, because the player understands the odds and wins about as often as the odds would predict. (A player who misunderstands the odds of a casino game may very well feel that they got "cheated" and then stop playing.) For games of skill, a player who understands their skill relative to their opponents' can realistically know their chances of winning ahead of time -- in this case, the only time someone calls "not fair" is when some minor random element ends up swinging the game in a way perceived as being too unlikely.<BR/><BR/>RPGs are an interesting case. Consider a sadistic GM who decides he wants to kill off the entire party. If the players perceive the death as arbitrary and unavoidable, they'll call unfair. But if the GM drops enough hints to make the players *think* that their death was their own fault (for example, by not paying attention to a few dropped hints that there was a trap in the room) then they will accept the outcome as fair -- even if the GM had no intention of letting them escape alive :)Ian Schreiberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03146360375570794401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9319479.post-41487276054704881762008-06-20T20:21:00.000+03:002008-06-20T20:21:00.000+03:00Traditional RPGs were concerned both with party ba...Traditional RPGs were concerned both with party balance (that is, fairness among the players) and game balance (fairness between the party and the environment, or the players and GM). A number of modern storytelling RPGs, though, toss this approach completely out the window. Some are not even about besting the odds. In these games, players know ahead of time that their characters are destined to die or go insane. The fun is in developing an interesting or dramatic story.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9319479.post-6376641939610821382008-06-20T20:09:00.000+03:002008-06-20T20:09:00.000+03:00As you said, wargames are a very good example. The...As you said, wargames are a very good example. The wars and battles of history were not always balanced. Often, one side had a distinct advantage over the other. My favorite game like this is Commands and Colors: Ancients. Many of the scenarios for this game are unbalanced. The rules suggest playing to victory, then switching sides and playing again. But my friend and I almost never do this. If we have the time, we prefer to explore a different scenario.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com